One thing that was really key for translation was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which happened in 1948 and that opened the doors to a lot of things. Because prior to that, when you're talking about the Hebrew Bible, there are two different, two different texts, authoritative texts that translators rely on. That is the Septuagint, which is technically a Greek translation of the Hebrew.
And then there's the Masoretic text, which is the Hebrew. And so scholars for millennia would say where they disagree, because there are places where they disagree. Where they disagree, we're going to go with the Hebrew, because surely more was lost in translation. What that does not take into account is that the Masoretic text itself is more than 1000 years younger than the Greek, and so that's an additional 1000 years of copying and opportunity for there to be an eye skip or an error or something like that.
And so truly, the question was in places where these two foundational texts that we use for translation. Disagree, which is right, and the Dead Sea Scrolls unlocked a lot of that.
Okay, hey everybody, where's my camera? Oh, right there. Look at that. We're back. That's right. And who gave Jeff Allen a podcast? Still looking, we're gonna find you, and also we're brought to be the only sponsor I have, Nordic wave, cold plunge. This morning, I got up. I was not feeling very well. I was a little groggy, little cranky. Didn't want to hug the misses, and I took a nice hot sauna at 145 degrees, and then I went out to my cold plunge at 50 degrees, and I sat in there and the steam that came off of my body, along with the the fatigue and the soreness and all of that left.
Now in all some of you are thinking, old man, Jeff, you should you be doing that? That contrast therapy? I consulted my doctor, my favorite Doctor, my physician, Dr obsequious, and he agreed with me. It's amazing. And his nurse, panderer, she agreed with me as well. So it's always important to find the right medical people in your life, and usually the ones I find are the ones that agree with me.
So very good. But anyway, consult your physician and make sure you're doing well. But go to Nordic wave comms, put in Jeff 150 save 150 bucks on your cold plunge, and begin your wellness program. It's important, especially for people our age. So today's guest, oh my gosh, you have three names. I know it's Haley.
Three first names. Amanda Hope, Haley, Mandy, Hope.
Haley, yeah, Haley, that's right, your last name. That's the last word I read. So that's what stuck into my peanut brain. And it's interesting, Amanda, you are an archeologist, yes. Okay, so put this in perspective, if you can imagine, back in the day, Bozo the Clown interviewing Louis Leakey, that's kind of what we're looking at today. This is totally out of my realm of expertise, so we'll just get into it. You have a book stones still speak. I used to speak when I was stoned, so I think we're at least kind of on the same page—that's for the burnouts out there. I didn't say the stoned still speak. I said stones still speak. And you can pick that up on every Amazon and all of that.
So my first question is I had to rely on other people to write questions, because this is so out of my and I admit it, I'm completely ignorant on this subject, but I do have questions. One of the first ones that popped into my head was archeology. Is to me, we were in Israel back in 2020 for the first and only time, and we got to see the city of David and what they're doing there, archeology wise, and the patience and what it takes and to find you may block off an area the size of a football field and spend years, decades, yeah, brushing with toothbrushes and things to find a bone. Now, with each find comes knowledge, yes, and from that knowledge, the full picture isn't there. So. The academics start speculating and creating narratives.
Yes, my I guess my question is, so we come out of enlightenment, and basically the intellectual community says we don't need God anymore, so now they need to find something that validates that this whole thing came apart, but not by a mind or divine creator, but so along comes Darwin, and he creates a narrative. By the way, I want to ask you, have you read the Origin of Species?
Oh, in undergrad, forever ago, just as required reading for something? Yes. I mean, I think I did. Maybe there was some scary happening there, not for
my stage. I've been saying to people my audience, I've been saying, nobody's read The Origin of Species. This is what academics they write a 900 page book, only when nobody's gonna read it. And some girl goes, I read it. She's like, 30 years old. I look at her. I go, shut up. You never read it. You looked at the pictures like all of us, there's an ape, and then we're standing that's it. Is that? What it said, 900 pages all the way up. Anyway, back to my question. So the narrative comes in, and then as time goes on, archeology starts debunking some of the narratives. Yeah, so between the time that we accepted the entire theory of evolution, okay, as a godless mechanism to put all of this in order, yeah, what has archeology kind of dug up to, to to, I don't want to say to bunk it, but to just say, you know, push back a little bit and go, No, there's a mind here. And the Bible, it really is the oldest narrative.
Would you say that? Yeah. I mean, it's among them. There are a few that are older, from Sumerian cultures. As far as the written records that we have. What you're describing with darwinianism is really anthropology. And so anthropology is the study of essentially human development, human interactions. Archeology is a subset of that. And what archeologists really do is we look at the way civilizations were built and interacted with each other, and so we're really concerned with the material culture that was left behind. So we'll go and dig up structures and try to understand how people lived. So it's not actually that what you were describing is sort of outside of my purview.
Just like paleontology, dinosaurs have really nothing to do with what archeologists do, which always disappoints kids, really, when I go, yeah, when I go into a classroom and everybody's like, Oh, an archeologist is here, and she plays in the dirt, and one little kid will raise his hand and, have you ever found a dinosaur bone? And then No, and I explained to them that no paleontology that that that's a different that is a different science that focuses on on animals, and that is that any, any of that would be in a deeper layer below what archeologists are doing, and all the little kids, like half the hands will go down, and they just look at me sadly for the rest of the time that I'm there, because I'm no longer cool to them. But we're all about the cities, the structures, like you were saying you went and visited the city of David. And so archeologists, ideally, in a perfect world, you would go out to Israel and look across the horizon, and you'd see these little bumps.
And we call them tells. That simply means mound. You'll also find archeologists are not particularly creative when it comes to the things that we name. We just call them what they are. But you'd see this mound out there, and you would just go and start digging with an open mind and in the field, that is really what we want. We don't want that narrative that you were talking about happening at that point. You want archeologists out there. They start digging, they start going down, they start finding things, and over the years and over the decades, as more is found and the layers go lower and lower, you're learning what these cities looks like.
You're learning how they were built and changed over time and all of that. Then after the fact, you can go back and you can compare these civilizations, and then you can look at say, what came out of Tel Megiddo? What did it look like during the Iron Age? And compare that to what are we seeing from Tel Shimron, which is a site that's not very far from it. What were they doing at that same period of time? And then you can figure out, Oh, these people were trading with each other. They were trading with Jerusalem. Well, we just, we found this artifact here that looks like maybe that came from the Aegean Sea.
How did it get here? From the Aegean Sea? And that's what archeologists want to do, is piece together the history of the time. And so then the interpretation is later, when you want to look at Megiddo, and you see a destruction layer there. And. An evidence of a massive, massive burning that happened. Then later you go, and you look at the Bible, and you read about there being a battle at Megiddo, and Josiah was killed there. And then maybe, maybe, then at that point, you can go, Okay, do these things line up? Does what we found at Megiddo suddenly help us understand the Scripture better. I personally, as a believer, it is very important to me that what is coming out of the ground is is as clean as scientific as possible, as opposed to going to Megiddo or going to any site and looking for something in particular, when you go and you're looking for the Ark of the Covenant, or you're looking for Noah's Ark, or something like that. That is not archeology.
That is grave robbing, treasure hunting, you know that sort of thing. You're starting with your preconceived notion, you're starting with your idea, and then you're trying to support it with what you found. And that's probably the first rule of archeology, is, if you go looking for it, you will find it, simply meaning, if you're at a site and you find something that supports your idea, you're going to inadvertently, subconsciously, or maybe consciously elevate that, whereas if you go in with fresh eyes, you're going to learn something and then do the application later.
That's what we'd like to see happening in the field, but we're all humans, and we all bring something along with us, and that's also why it's important to do it in community and do it in conversation with other archeologists who have other specialties, because then they can point out the holes or the contradictions or something like that that they may see In your own research. Yeah.
Okay, cool. Totally over my head, but I forgot to do your intro again. I was so excited to talk to you that I completely so that, because people are probably wondering, what does she know? Amanda hope Haley, I'm going to read this is a Harvard grad and biblical archeologist, researcher and author known for helping modern readers understand Scripture through the lens of historical, cultural and archeological context, which is what you just explained. You work focuses on bridging the gap between the ancient world of the Bible and contemporary faith, encouraging careful reading of the biblical text grounded in early sources and material evidence.
You are the author of stone still speak. We mentioned that the book invites readers to look beyond centuries of tradition, artwork and popular retellings, and instead return to the text itself, which is supported by archeology, ancient languages and early man's manuscript traditions. And through your research and teaching, you challenge assumptions, clarify commonly misunderstood passages and help uncover what the biblical authors are communicating to their original audiences. You regularly speak on topics related to biblical history, archeology and textural context, helping believers engage scripture with both intellectual honesty and deeper reverence. I love that. That's a lot of words, intellectual honesty and deep. Yeah, I know some people read my bio and I go, Oh, my God, I did that.
I didn't even know it. One of the things you do, and I really, is just strip away the centuries of imagination, and you kind of get us back to the text, which is important. That's my goal. And we were talking off air about, I have a friend that's a historian, and he goes back to the original text of the foundings of the founders, what they wrote, and that should be the, the arbiter of any disagreement. What did they say? And then you can get into, I guess, meaning of that. And then that's speculative and but one of the the most popular biblical stories we learn is a little even I did. Mine was raised by an atheist, and I heard David and Goliath. So yeah, it obviously First Samuel.
I think it's 17, tells the story of David and Goliath. And Goliath. And who is Goliath according to the text and and not by the reputation? Again, in your head, as a child, most human beings are giants, you know. So most adults are giants to a child so to grown men, what would a giant look like? Would it be like? Andre the Giant from Princess Bride,
not even that tall? I don't think really. Yeah. I i love the story of David and David and Goliath now, because it encapsulates so much of what I talk about, because you have textual issues there. As of 2019 we have some new archeological evidence, that sort of thing, which is really, really great. Sadly, it all sort of debunks what we've all always believed. Really, yes, so the fine debunked what we've always so, I mean, yeah, or it, what did they find? Well, they, let's get to that in a. Second.
Okay, let's back up a little bit. And I think the David and Goliath story as I was taught as a kid, as Veggie Tales teaches it, as society talks about it, is this idea that you know David was, at best, a very young man, gentle lamb, slum across his shoulders, no experience, scrawny. Maybe some will even call him a redhead. Maybe, yeah, that pops up occasionally.
He's ruddy. He was, he's a musician. So you have this sort of gentle depiction of him. And then the contrast is Goliath, who is, he was 10 feet tall. He's this massive giant. And so back here we are, Oh, definitely, for sure, yeah, covered it, covered in scales of armor and all of this, and needed a wax. Maybe so, maybe so. But he you have this dichotomy, this gets set up and into that. There's this idea that God came and he created a miracle, and that is how David brought Goliath down.
None of that is scriptural. Literally, none of that matches what is in the text. And I think a lot of times these there's several reasons that we as a culture begin to misinterpret biblical stories. I think the origin of that may be like you're saying post enlightenment. You have this period of time before the translation of the scriptures that happened toward the end of the Renaissance, where people could not read scripture for themselves, right? And that is definitely something we take for granted now, because, I mean, I've got you version on my phone that has, I don't even know how many different
translations, yeah, luther's Reformation
changed the entire world. It was it really, really did put
it in the hands of the huddled masses. Exactly. Things changed a lot. They did entrepreneurship. I heard went through the roof.
That makes because people read God created.
So if he creates, I create, you know?
And, yeah, that's beautiful. Well, so with that, we today, I think, take for granted that we can read the scripture for ourselves, and even at that point, so very few people actually were literate. Literacy worldwide did not really start exploding until the 1950s really? Yeah. I mean, as far as there being numbers over 60 and 70% literacy among adults, that really starts happening in the 1950s is where it becomes important. Today, we're well over the night. We'll answer
the question then about the different interpretations of the Bible. Obviously, you know, if you can read it in the original Greek and original Hebrew, then that would probably be the best way to understand of course, but nobody's gonna Exactly. So now you got, like you said, 80 different interpretations of it, and that's one of the arguments you hear coming from the enlightened, is that, how can you call this the Word of God and take it literally when it's been changed? I mean, there's so many different translations. Is the
word, yes, I'm your girl on this one. So when I left Harvard and we moved back to Middle Tennessee. I spent the next seven years working on a new Bible translation. So actually did some Hebrew translation. I'm older than I look.
I'd rather get stabbed in the eye with an ice pick.
I worked a little bit on that, but over the seven years.
But also I want to say Praise God for people like this, because we would not have what we have if it wasn't for people like you.
Thank you. I I tend to think God gifts us in very, very different ways, in very specific ways. And being at this, this point in my life, I realized we all need each other so very, very much like I could sit here, and I could read the Hebrew Bible to you, but I mean you can sit here, and I mean you can make me laugh, and you have your own particular stories from your own background that are going to bring enlightenment to me. We all need each other in all of this, and it's so important that we listen to each other and we tamp down our egos about specific things.
And that's even true in the translation process, because over seven years, I did my initial translation work, and then it went to different scholars all over the world who were working on it, who came back in with their edits and their changes and their perspectives on certain things. And then I was also privy to conversations between other scholars. I'm an Old Testament Hebrew Bible person, but watching the New Testament scholars go at it over, you know, various kinds of things. They all have their own perspectives. They all it's an iron sharpening iron kind of situation. And what is really important for translation today is translation of the Bible is not about changing what the Bible says. It is about understanding it better.
Our languages have changed. I mean, simply English, I would have a clue what to do with Middle English, and that is technically, some would say even my language, I wouldn't even probably be able to read it. Our languages evolve. The meaning of words evolve, and so at that basic public level. That's why you need it. But then from an archeological perspective, you need it because we are learning more. And there are words, especially in the Hebrew Bible, that, honestly, nobody knows what they mean. They occur one time. Context clues within the passage will give us an idea, but they occur one time. They are in no other text inside or outside of the Bible, and we're just making our best guess.
But even with Hebrew scholars, even with Hebrew scholars, if it's one word used one time ever at all in the world, the best what they will do is look at the etymology. What is potentially the root word here. And these people know what they are doing. They make excellent guesses at it. And a good Bible translation will, in those places, put a footnote and tell you like this was our best guess. You always want a Bible translation that tells you where a choice has been made for you.
Has this diligence been done with other religious texts, whether it be the I Ching or the Quran or
I honestly don't know that that's not that's not my I don't know that is not my community. So I don't want to speak to that. But we had that one thing that was really key for translation was the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which happened in 1948 and that opened the doors to a lot of things. Because prior to that, when you're talking about the Hebrew Bible, there are two different two different texts, authoritative texts that translators rely on. That is the Septuagint, which is technically a Greek translation of the Hebrew, and then there's the Masoretic text, which is the Hebrew.
And so scholars for millennia would say where they disagree, because there are places where they disagree, where they disagree, we're going to go with the Hebrew because surely more was lost in translation. What that does not take into account is that the Masoretic text itself is more than 1000 years younger than the Greek, and so that's an additional 1000 years of copying and opportunity for there to be an eye skip or an error or something like that.
And so truly, the question was in places where these two foundational texts that we use for translation disagree, which is right? And the Dead Sea Scrolls unlocked a lot of that, because when they were found in 1948 they're roughly the same age as the Septuagint, but they're still in Hebrew, and in almost every place that the Septuagint and the Masoretic Text disagree, and one of those is the height of Goliath the Dead Sea Scrolls agrees with this. Were there
major conflicts in the disagreement, or was it more semantical?
A lot of times it would have to do with numbers. There are places where there's one spot, I think it is talking about Avi Melek, and it says, the Masoretic Text will say he rules from Hebron for 40 years. Another one says he ruled for four years. It's likely that you know, you can see how that error happens.
You can see how numbers if we go 100 years from now and we use Trump's numbers, gonna be slightly exaggerated, probably so numbers and don't email us about it was a joke. So anyway, so that's
what's happening with Goliath. Which? Which
the the one question everybody asked me, Did people really live 400 years, 900 years, or was there a different measurement of year back when that text was written? I one
thing you'll learn about me is I'm not afraid to say I don't know, and this is a place where I'm going to say I don't know, biologically speaking, looking at what's come out of the ground bones that have been carbon dated, and the older bones get, the harder that is to do, because of the breakdown of things. But there's been, you know, no evidence of 400 year old human bones found anywhere. Then again, would you expect that? Because they're going to deteriorate over that period of time? And I
had heard from a biologist, I don't know I was listening to some stuff that the canopy that they talk about in Genesis would change carbon dating. It would change the decay because of the filtering of the UV rays, because there was this canopy, okay, ozone, whatever, whatever it was, but it would change the environment, the firmament. I'm not sure. Again, you're talking Bozo, the clown, but I but anyway, I had heard that, and I thought that it was just, again, a speculative narrative that if there was an ozone layer over the canopy of it would change the filtering of the UV rays coming from the suns, okay, completely. And it would change carbon dating for
you know, there is new I'm getting way outside of my specialty here. There's new technology, okay, well, I'll tell you a little bit, and then please, I but it
was like. For at least clarifying the fact that you're because you're the expert, that you will admit that there are certain we're out of your realm.
Oh yeah, totally. I don't want to, yes. I much rather be honest.
I was gonna talk about automobile engines next.
My car was just in the shop last week. You never know. I might have picked something up. There's new technology coming through this is outside of my realm. It's based on moans. I believe it's m, O, H, N, and that has to do. It has to do with the way the light penetrates the soil, penetrates artifacts, and those can be measured. And that is the extent of my understanding of that.
I know I have read from archeologists and those type of scientists that this could change or could improve carbon dating, that sort of thing. It's still, is still being experimented with. As far as I know, there are no archeological sites who are dumping, you know, carbon dating and all that, to go with moans. Also, when it, when it comes to that type of like scientific dating, it's important to remember, for archeologists, that is just one tool in the kit. And really, where most dating comes from doesn't have to do with the the science, like the material that's in there. It has to do with where it was in the tell, and what was surrounding it and what we see around it. The first dating by archeologists.
The bound, yes, the the first archeologists early, early in the 20th century, when they started doing dating, they actually did it based on pottery shapes, pottery forms, the type of artwork that was on there. And so pottery was actually before we got to the science. Pottery was how they would determine the age of a particular strata. And so you see where it is in the ground, and then you compare it to what was above it and what was below it, and then you compare it to other sites and see what they have at that period of time. And so that happens in the field. That happens while we're there during the summer, pulling artifacts out. We're reading and dating pottery as it's coming out. The scientific stuff comes later. There are multiple labs all over the world, some with higher success rates than others, that sort of thing. And so things will go off to be dated. It could take a long time to get those results back, but again, then that's just more information that goes in there.
And so we're wanting as much clean information as possible. Technology is so important in archeology, there's so much of it that is, you know, that is theorizing and putting pieces together, but it is becoming more scientific, because of GPS, because of this tool called LIDAR that is out there, where they're able to use radar and different types of truly scientific and even biological practices. I worked with a gentleman from the Wiseman Institute when I was in Tel shimmer. And back in 2019 he was there taking scrapings off of the floor, trying to determine, you know, what is this? Is this plaster, or is this dead plant material? And based on what they came back with, we were working in a kitchen at that time, his microbiology was able to tell us the kinds of foods that had been prepared in that specific space, that is science.
So all of this comes together, and the archeologist is really the person who, at the end, is trying to line all this up and put it into what are sometimes, are typically very, very boring, dig reports, you know, but that's, that's the raw stuff. That's the primary text, and that's what we want to be getting closer to all the time. We want to get closer to the primary text.
Okay, so Macy, what's it called? Messeric, Masoretic, Masoretic, and
Septuagint, when it comes
to this, just the simple story of David and Goliath. Which one do you lean towards?
Definitely, because of the Dead Sea scrolls the Septuagint, for sure, even before the Dead Sea Scrolls were found, which that was essentially 1948 and there's a whole story that goes along with that. But before they were found and before they were translated, people would still look at the texts, and you could see that what is it? Issue is, is he four cubits in a span or six cubits in a span? It's a difference of roughly six and a half feet tall versus nine and a half feet tall. That's where we are. It is. It's a big difference when it comes to humanity, yes, exactly, yeah. And so when you look then at the text, what comes above and below it, you see the number six used in a very close area. And so people, even before the Dead Sea Scrolls, would theorize, okay, one of the mazarite one of the masrietes, one of the scribes who were copying it, they had what we call an eye skip, and he accidentally wrote a six down instead of a four, essentially, is what they would say. Happened? Are there any
text with four in it?
The Septuagint and now the Dead Sea Scrolls? Oh, okay, so that's it. So what we needed, what
are you over? You're. Or 650,
six. Yeah, somewhere disappointed.
Oh, I'm sorry I was sitting there thinking I'm but it also makes sense that he could go down with a shot to the head with a rock. Yeah, you know, because when you read it, you think, what would one little pebble do? I mean, you know, but now it makes more sense.
Archeology helps us there, too. So, so we know from the text he was, I mean, six and a half feet tall, and that's rough. We don't know exactly what a cubit was, because a cubit was based on arms.
Cosby posed that question years ago, cubit, yeah, yeah. When Noah was listening to God's voice, you build it the 140 cubits by 90 cubit by 100 and it goes, What's a cube? I mean,
honestly, it's a fair question. We can't we're not in we're not instant to meters or even inches or anything like that with it, which would be a lot easier when it comes to numbers. I also think some of this stuff is intentionally fuzzy, so that we're not focusing in on the wrong things, so that we're not obsessed with what the giant look like in the ancient world. We notice the text more, but he so the text we see that he six, five, still a big guy. And what we know from archeology and other ancient texts, the Egyptians help us with this a lot, is the Philistines. The Philistines were a warrior culture. They came we know now, actually, because of DNA testing that happened in 2016 we know that they came from the Aegean and the Caribbean. We have texts from Egypt that support that.
How much is history coming from hieroglyphics? Quite a bit.
Because when you're talking about the Old Testament. We don't have any of the original versions of those books of the Bible, and we don't have any extra biblical books from that time period. You look at Egypt, you look at Assyria, you look at other nations from that time who were who were writing in cuneiform, or carving into stone, something like that. Those texts survived.
We don't have extra texts from Israel. And as as a Bible reader, it is an archeologist, like, I don't really care if we ever find the Holy Grail or anything like that. I want to know what those extra books of the Bible are that are being mentioned, like, in the Book of Kings, where it says, like, there's basically footnotes in Kings, where it'll tell a little bit of a story, and say, if you want to know more about this dude, then go to the chronicles of you know that's all in there.
Growing up, I think I was taught that maybe that meant the books of Chronicles. It does not that is another text that we don't have that's lost. So these other these other civilizations, because we had their preserved written text, we have sometimes these mentions of other people. So what happened was the Philistines, who we call the Philistines. They were called the Palestine,
just so I can get my head straight on this. So you got the Hebrew text, the Masonic Masoretic and then now you're in order to validate some of what you're reading in there, you're getting text from Egypt, or the Egyptians, like the Philistines were a warring culture, yes, so that kind of validates, yeah, over here, because it makes sense that there's not going to be an exhaust when you got to handwrite everything. You're going to use some shorthand.
What it's doing is, is explaining to us how these cultures interacted at the time. And so what happened was this group called the Sea peoples. It was actually multiple different cultures came in from the Caribbean, from no not the Caribbean. Mediterranean from that area, very Wow across the nation. That would be really different. I kind of want to see that maybe they came in and ended up attacking Egypt.
And Egypt went through a period where they went into decline. Their culture did after that happened, the palisade or all of these sea peoples moved up along the coast of the Mediterranean and settled in formerly Canaanite cities. And so you have the stories from Egypt of these people coming in and causing problems you have in reliefs in Egypt, depictions of them with their headdresses, you know, seeing what their armor looked like. And then that can be compared to what is being found at Aegean sites. And you see the overlap there. And so we learn how they moved into Egypt.
But then, critically, decades later, when Egypt starts rising in power again, they end up hiring the Philistines to be mercenaries. The Philistines were world renowned warriors. Everybody knew how tough they were, just as the Bible describes that they were a fearsome warrior force. They had war technologies that that the Canaanites and the Israelites in that region did not have yet very forging at this point. Yes, yeah. So we're talking, we're talking like late bronze age into early Iron Age. So they, you know, they're wearing Bronze Armor, that sort of thing. And so
prior to that, what did they war with? Pardon, prior to that, forging swords and spears and whatever, what? What were the weapons of war? Because, I mean, Cain and Abel, they use the rock
that's true. Well, you go back in the Bible, and this actually matters for this depiction, too. Actually, slings, slings, so you Joshua and judges, there's a description of a very particular benjaminite tribe. They were all left handed. And it talks about all left handed.
So happy she's she's probably from the tribe of Ben.
I often wonder, and this is just me, like, just wondering, because Hebrews written from right to left, and I sometimes instead of left to right, and so I sometimes wonder if more people were left handed at the time. Well, that's so funny. That makes more because
my wife grew up in the area where they would tie your left hand. Her grandparents tied her left hand behind her, made her eat with her right hand. Just abused her. I mean, it was though. I mean, it was just one of them. They smack her hand if she reached for something with her left hand. I mean, they were not kind people. That's not what this interview is about. No, no. So anyway,
she might really appreciate Hebrew. Well, I can't wait. I can't wait for biology. There was a whole tribe of you. Yes, yes. So there are these particular warriors, and the Bible describes how they at a very long distance. They could hit a hair's breadth with a sling, really. So slings have been a few slings have been found. They tend to biodegrade. But a sling at the time would have been a very large, either leather or fabric pouch with straps on on the end that would be slung over their head.
And then the stones themselves could be quite sizable. They would be smooth, they, I mean, they could actually be quite large. But these were tactical weapons with range. And when you go to actually some Neo Assyrian reliefs that are kept they're called the Lachish reliefs. You can see how the armies were arranged during the Iron Age. And so you see on there archers. You see an entire row of slingers. You see swordsmen in the front. All of that is there. And so a sling was actually a tactical weapon of war at this point when we're talking about so that's what David used. So David then he was the youngest son. He was not a child by any stretch of the imagination. And if you read only what he says to King Saul, when he goes up to him, he basically gives him his resume, and he says to him, yeah, I've been a shepherd.
I have killed a lion, I have wrestled a bear, I've done all these things with my bare hands. What he is saying to him is, Put me in coach. I'm prepared for this. I have spent years. And then you think about him doing that work as a shepherd. I mean, he's, he's picking up stray animals. I mean, this, this exercised his body. This made him strong. And a sling would have been a useful tool to him in keeping those wild animals away.
Because sheep, unlike, unlike, say, an ibex, which is has like those, you know, curly horns and stuff, sheep are largely defenseless, so he's out there having to protect them from from these predators. He had this, this moment of grand preparation. He was young, but he was skilled. He was prepared for this moment when he would come up against Goliath and and then you look at King Saul. King Saul was himself a benjaminite. And I think on, I don't know if he was left handed or not, but he was a benjaminite, and he must have grown up with these stories of his kinsmen during wartime doing this. And so when you when you see what the material world looked like at that point, and then critically, when you read more than just one chapter of text, when you go earlier, and you see that time God spent preparing David for this.
The story becomes more about more than this, and then on the other end, Goliath is down. What happens next? David is made he's made a general. He's not a child. He's made a general in the army. He marries me Hall, he comes into the royal family, and then he starts pursuing the crown himself. That is one little story that our culture has blown into its own like incident, but it's just one little story in how God spent all this time preparing David to be the his king, to be the man after his own heart, to unite all the tribes together to found the house of David, which there's an inscription that says that that was found, you know, years and years later. And so archeology, to me, contextualizes the Bible.
I don't like to say that it proves the Bible. I that is not its function. And for someone who believes in in the Holy Scripture, we don't need to be running around trying to prove anything anyway. We need to be understanding it better. And that's what I
like that. Yeah, that's true. We don't need to. You know, I went down that rabbit hole for years. When I first became a believer. I wanted to make sure that what I believed in Scripture, because I grew up with all of the the usual bigotries, I would say, against scripture, Jonah and the whale. So what, I'm sure there's a misinterpretation of that entire thing, because all I remember is the little felt things they put up, and then the whale spit Jonah out, you know, like, kind of gave him a heartburn. I would think that.
And I get it confused with like Pinocchio, because to me, the whale is like Monstro that, like Geppetto is like sailing around in and there, you know, that that's what I imagine, probably because of those felt boards. And as kids, this is part of the problem. I think as adults too, we get taught the stories, and that's important as a child, because you're trying to that's the context to the story at all. And I mean, kids don't need to be reading about David chopping Goliath head off necessarily, when they're five years old, you know. So we do teach children in different ways, but we need
hate to do this. But I'm one of these. Add people. How much of the Bible would you say? I mean, again, this is, you know, a speculative thing. Is metaphorical, how much is allegorical? How much is historical?
Oh, man, I wouldn't. I would not use any of those words specifically, okay, I would, I'm sorry, or I would use all of those words in different contexts.
But you're a brood of vipers. Is probably metaphorical.
I don't know that literal. It is theological. The Bible is a theological text. Oh, wow. It was given to us for the one purpose of understanding God better. And as someone who loves words and writes and translates and I words, printed words, especially that that that is good for me, that
will drive you insane, because words don't mean anything.
It's true. It's true. I spent a lot of time trying to change hearts and minds and remind people of the beauty of bookstores, all of that, and spending time researching something and diving into something and learning something actually going beyond just the little snippets of stories to what that broader context is.
Okay. So with Jonah and the whale, obviously, I know this, because I'm a child of it. There is no context to you see the Jonah, you see the whale, and then he's in the whale, and then he's out of the way, yeah, and life changes for the Ninevites, you know? But that's basically, yeah.
It's only four chapters, yeah. There's not a lot that is there. It is not classified as a historical book of the Old Testament. Samuel and King. Samuel and Kings are considered historical. Jonah is not. Jonah is part of Wisdom literature, and that is because it is about a prophet. Essentially, that's how it gets categorized historical and wisdom then so historical.
If you look at Samuel and Kings, Samuel and Kings is, say, the court record of what was going on for the kingdom of Israel at the time scribes sat down. People debate when I'm going to say broadly likely, during the Iron Age, they start recording all of this information, and that's why you get those funny kind of footnotes, as I like to call them, where it's like, we're going to tell you a little bit about this obscure king who didn't matter that much. If you want to know more, go over to this other text that, sadly, we have lost so it that is, that is history that is being recorded for the purpose of memory.
Contrast that with Chronicles, which is also Wisdom literature. If you read the two together, I've heard people say we don't need Chronicles. Throw Chronicles out. It's a bad retelling. It's not Chronicles was actually written after the exile. During the exile, after the exile, it is a reflection on the history, and when you read Chronicles, you need to notice what gets left out. You don't get any of the bad stuff about King David in there.
You don't get any of the bad stuff about King Solomon in there, because for the chronicler, all of this was being written as as the now Jews, as the Jews are returning to Jerusalem, rebuilding the city. And that was written so that they would be inspired to follow God and recreate this kingdom in a better way. Moving forward, remember where you came from exactly. So it's not. It is not. It is not a historical book. One thing that Christian bibles do that I kind of wish they wouldn't, is they put Chronicles right after Samuel and Kings and I think for just the casual Christian reader, that sort of puts in your head, oh, these go together.
Well, I thought, I always thought it was. Historical. It's not in the in the heat, in the in the Jewish ordering of things, and maybe in some other orthodox orderings as well. I'm not sure how they order all of their books, but for the Jews, Chronicles comes at the end. It's the very end, and that's the perfect place to put it, because it is and it is a reflection on everything that has come before. It in their in their canon, and so it is aspirational, but it is also a memory, and that that's where, that's where you want Chronicles. You want to read it at the end. And then I think reading that and contrasting it with what is a historical book that tells you a lot about the people who recorded it, and what was going on in their community at the time, what was important to them, what God wanted them to remember again?
Yeah, you'd get a different writing when you're in bondage, as opposed to when you're you're out, and now you're optimistic and you're hopeful. And, yeah, this is what God's revealing to us. You know, where we where we should be headed, or headed Exactly, yeah, makes perfect sense.
And you're encountering, for them, you're encountering similar struggles, because you that's
why it was so odd when you said it was a wisdom book. I thought, honestly, I thought it, even then the name sounds like it's historical, chronologically. This is what
it is, the chronicles of our people, written
after the the parting of the the sea.
How long was Chronicles written after
Moses and the parting of the Red I
hell, it depends on when you date that these are all answers the fuzzy. I mean, you could, I mean, you could say maybe 1000 years. Okay, so it depends on who you're talking to and how they date particular things, but it but, but critically, it's happening after the exile. The exile was in 586, BC, so you that we have that date, and it is corroborated by those other cultures who left more writings like there's really that that's a date we can hold on to. The closer you get in time to where we are today, the more verifiable dates that you have.
Are there any contradictions between the Egyptian text from the exile as opposed to the Hebrew text
in that there is no mention of wait, I'm sorry, did you say the exile?
Yeah, or the releasing from the bondage of the Egyptians,
the Exodus. You may have said that in my brain,
I heard the word exile, and I thought, well, that sounded like the you get no free from the from the Egyptian bondage? Yeah. No, there was a difference between explain the difference between the Exodus and the exile.
So Exodus is that is Moses taking the Israelites, Moses and Aaron, taking them up out of Egypt. Shortly after that is then when you have the basically, the conquest of Canaan. Is what happens there. That is the star of the Israelite nation of that time. The Israelite nation, it's tribal until it is brought together first under Saul, but he didn't do 100% complete job, because we needed David to come back in. David is really the first one who unites everybody under David and Solomon Israel, ancient Israel, is governed as one nation after Solomon,
there's a split between the northern kingdom and the southern kingdom. The northern kingdom in roughly 709 gets conquered by the Neo Assyrians. The Southern Kingdom hangs on until 586 when they are conquered by the Neo Babylonians. It is the Neo Babylonians who take the people who are left in and around Jerusalem and send them into exile in Babylon and then they are there for roughly 70 years before the Persian Empire comes and conquers the Neo Babylonians. And the Persians then are the ones who say, Hey guys, go back. Go rebuild your temple. Go rebuild your city. We'll give you the money. We'll help you do it because the Persians basically ruled differently than than previous empires have. So Neo Babylonians caused the exile. Persians were the ones who released them from it. Oh, okay, yeah, wow. Israelite history in 45 seconds.
Well, that's like we just I heard a sermon recently. I think it's Matthew, where the text is, and suddenly he appeared. It was 400 years after Malachi prediction, so the time between testament. So what is your suddenly, yeah, and that was kind of the message of the thing. What is your suddenly, we are so impatient as a species, to where you know, you pray for certain things, and they just don't come, you know. And then all of a sudden, 810, 12 years later, you realize there's an answer to that. You know, that's my suddenly, suddenly, you know, 12 years later, but 400 years after.
Okay, it is. And I know, growing up in a Protestant tradition, I was just sort of taught that those 400 years, they call it the time between the Testaments or something like that. Like, I just sort of picture people like sitting on their hands and not really doing anything, right. Like, okay, we're just waiting. This is really boring, when, in reality, that might be the most tumultuous 400 years in the history of the world, because that's that's the Persian Empire.
It starts there, but then it's Alexander the Great, and he comes in and ends up taking over all of those regions, critically spreading the Greek language. And it's also during this time period that you get the translation of the Septuagint into Greek. And if it weren't for that, I don't know how Christianity would have been able to spread, because in the New Testament, when Jesus is quoting the Old Testament, he's quoting the Septuagint. That's why sometimes what you see in there, the quotes may not exactly match up with what he's saying in one book and the other. It's because that's what everybody was reading. That's what everybody was speaking because it was a Hellenized world. Because of that 400 years. We needed that 400 years for culture to change to a space where now we could go out to the Greek. There is no Jew, there is no Greek. Everybody in that world was speaking Greek. The world had to change to that point so that we Gentiles could benefit, and I'm solidly a Gentile.
Well, it's funny. It just popped into my head. I heard a quote, I think Nietzsche said it at the end of the 19th century. He said, If I'm right, and God is dead, and there is a lot of talk, we are living in a post Christian West, oh sure, so if God is dead in the 19th century, then the 20th century will be the bloodiest century in the history of the world, and history's proved that out with Marxism coming in and all these godless systems. So I think I'd like to think that there's a revival and an interest in what you do and what you teach I do. I think that I'm reading more and more culturally that the younger men, Gen Z men, they've realized they've been sold a bill of goods in this culture that we've put forth about materialism and stuff.
What if someone really, I mean this, believe me, if they've stuck this far in here, they're interested in this stuff, your book stone still speak. Amanda hope Haley, what else would be a good online resource that you, you you follow, or we were talking off air about the convention. There's, there's actually a convention of you people get together. I think I would love to just sit in the back of the room and watch what you nerds talk about.
Some topics are more interesting than others. I will say, two years ago, there was a dig director sitting next to me. We were going through these sessions, big directors, yeah, the people who are like, in charge of the tunnels, we call them,
have dirty fingernails. Would drive my wife insane.
Oh, no, archeology is not for her, at least
not the physical she is though she she's a dirt person, really? Yeah, she gardener. She got in, yes, she got insulted by a nail tech. It was very funny. She was got her nails. Tammy is brutal on nail techs. She's OCD. She wants them done a certain way. And she was going through them, like, remember the old show Murphy Brown? Or she went through secretaries like, every other week, literally, right? Yeah. So that was Tammy with nail Texan, and one of them insulted her, you got hands like Fama, you know. And Tammy went, What did you say? And he said, You got hands like fama. And Tammy realized she was insulting her, you know, your hands are grubby and filthy. And she goes, but I work in the garden to watch my wife get inside, because it's hard to insult her
She's pretty tough, pretty tough lady. So the dig director, yeah,
oh, she was sitting and the next person coming on was going to actually talk about pottery shapes and forms, like I was saying that, you know, we've used to date and everything, she looks at me. She's like, I cannot sit through another pottery class. Stood up and left. It was like, and I got to admit it, sometimes yawn.
Outsiders say, what is a moment that Amanda hope Haley, at one of those conventions, is on the edge of her seat?
No, I don't, whoa. Well, there's two with what we talked about today. Honestly, in 2019 the people who were digging at the city The Bible calls Gat, where Goliath is from, in 2019 they hit an unexpected layer of civilization. Yeah, and the architecture was markedly different.
It was not that the buildings or anything were larger, but the architecture was different. And I would, I've described it sort of as the difference between building something with a red brick versus like a concrete block. The scale, the shape of everything was different. But, you know, Giants would not be necessary in the construction of that like still, you know, very human. But seeing that shift in in the architecture shows that there was, you know, a difference in who was living there and who was coming in. These people obviously brought their architectural styles from somewhere else, and then also in those layers, finding burials, and all of the people there are of absolutely normal size, no giants whatsoever. And so that was, for me, that little bit of archeological piece that was sort of missing from this whole discussion about Goliath and Giants and gas. So how are you
wait for these things? This is, it's a patient. It is. It goes solely in contrast to the world we live in, where everything is immediate now and the gratification that comes from it. You have to just enjoy the process
you do, and I think you have to respect the process as well. Something that's happening is the world is turning and people aren't spending time reading books and they're watching archeology shows on television, people are wanting just to get down. They want the things that are sensationalized. They would just want, like the quick headlines. That's not good for anybody in any sort of scientific field, because peer review is really important. You want people who know more or no, different things than you laying eyes on these things, so that when you finally do come to the point, and usually it's a couple of years when you finally do come to the point that you publish something, you can be confident that what you're telling people is true. Is true. That's where we want to be with this kind of stuff and getting society to relearn patience. Yeah, that is well outside of my capability. Just try to encourage wait and see, wait and see.
You see it in the culture in general, is that this inability to disagree without being disagreeable, you know, the I believe. And this is, again, just from a bozil the clown. But you know, we were built. The West was built in a hierarchy of values. And the values come from debate and living, yeah, and if you can't have debate, then where do your values come from? I mean, if you know, usually the brute wins that argument, if you if you're not going to do it civilly. So within your field, it makes perfect sense there would be disagreements and stuff, again, because the fines are so far and removed, you go years before something new. So I understand speculation. I understand but as long as there's a civil environment in which to disagree. It is, there is,
Oh, definitely, I mean, through, basically, through journals, through articles, and then, honestly, people just talk to each other going to these conferences like you were saying. I mean, you'll look around and, you know, see people from different countries sitting down together and discussing something.
Gotta be like, when, when the Wizard of Oz put all the little people together, they realize, Oh my gosh, there's a bunch of us. So it's basically like a midget convention. You guys get together and go, Holy cow. You enjoy this stuff
too, and bringing different perspectives in that that is something that we're losing, I think, with our screens and everything is, we're behind our screens. We're not talking to humans in person.
I also just went back to reading hard copies of books. Oh, bless you. Yeah, I, for years, I just, because of the travel, I was traveling with 456, books in my backpack, and that'll bring the shoulder Exactly. Yeah, you know, because I have, I read a lot of non fiction. So it isn't like a story where you gotta, you know, I could pick it up three days, four days later, I'll finish a chapter, and then I'll start something else, and then, you know, eventually I'll get through all of them, but I gotta lug them all. Yeah, right. I just found it easier to put it on an iPad with Kindle and stuff. But then you realize that if they shoot out Amazon satellites, there goes your digital copy of the book, you know, and that's an easy way for a tyrant to eliminate history. I mean, it really is. Those ancient texts would go away if they were all on digital.
And I just saw a week or two ago. I'm not sure who published it, maybe Publishers Weekly, but a study came out that basically stated, people who read on paper have better understanding of what they read than when it's on a screen. And that doesn't surprise me, coming from a world of editing and translation and all of that, it's been a known phenomenon in publishing for decades that you catch more mistakes when you're doing it on paper than you do on a screen. And I don't know that anybody knows why exactly something about your eye movement, but that that is true as far as editing, definitely, but they're now saying as far as reading comprehension, for children and for adults as well, you comprehend, you process things better, deeply, more quickly, when you're actually reading in hardcover, yeah, which explains
why Silicon Valley requires their children to use paper pen and read off a hard copy. Yeah, yeah. I read that, that their children, when they go to school, do it old school.
And I'd love to see the Socratic method come back to that. Just being in person, having this conversation where you have somebody who is asking questions and always, not always, just telling, telling, telling, encouraging, that kind of thoughtfulness.
Well, that's we're trying to get Andy banister on our show. Andy is an apologist out of the UK. I met him years ago, but he started in London standing in the square, okay, like the Socratic thing, saying things, and then people would shout back, and they would have this dialog, yeah, and then the next guy would step up and say what he needed to say.
And then they would, you know, and it would be cool to see the public square be more like that. And I don't know if social media will ever be like that, because there's too many wounded people within our culture that somehow this feeds some or salve some wound they have where they need to belittle people and tear them down, and nothing is ever gained by that. So I am telling you, I didn't think we would make a whole hour, just because I'm a moron and but you are fascinating. There's so many more things I wanted to get to. Maybe we can have you back, sure, and one of them, boy, all right, here's one.
I just want to get to this. There's a lot of places mentioned in the New Testament. You say you're an Old Testament person, but you're, I'm sure, familiar with the new from an archeologist perspective. That's what I always tell people when they when they talk about the old laws, you know, stoning people, everything I go, You do realize that there's a New Testament, right? Jesus, Jesus came and fulfilled all those things by getting brutalized on the cross. Why can't many of these sites be excavated? We know that from going to Israel that the temple is in the Muslim side.
So my question, I guess, is it naive to think that Israel isn't somehow managing to get in there and do whatever they can to excavate some of those areas. But what are real world limitations people usually don't consider into because there are, again, areas, yeah, that are not accessible, right? So open and honest findings, you know, there are things that certain people would not like to be found, to back text,
geographically speaking, like where you're talking about, like political boundaries, obviously, that is going to be an issue depending on which government is in control, who is issuing the licensing. That's just a very legal problem, right there. More practically, I would say, for me, is basically during the Byzantine era Helena St Helena went through and when she was in the Holy Land, people would tell her, like, hey, Jesus turned water into wine here. And she would go, Hey, build a church. And that happened all over the place. And basically any place that I can think of that comes to mind, with one exception, in Israel today, where something pertaining to Jesus in the New Testament happened, had a church thrown up on it. And those churches, just by virtue of being Byzantine, are themselves. Archeological artifacts, the church
that was built after they found Jesus in a potato chip.
but people came in from all over the world to see the piece of toast with, with, with them we want to see. You know, I get that. I mean, I really do. I mean, I
understand tangible right
in the something in Israel, okay? I think it was, yeah, it was Israel. That was, they built the whole shrine around that was the tomb, or church, the Holy Sepulcher, that was it. And, yes, I got pretty choked up thinking, I mean, if you allow your mind to it's like the first time I worked the Raymond auditorium, and I stood on that stage and realized all of the people who have stood on that stage, it's in.
Amazing thing, yeah, but to go into Israel, and I highly recommend, if you can go to Israel and read your book first, please, yes. And so for someone who wants to take this seriously, yeah, and, and again, I'm one of those that are overwhelmed. I think Tammy, my wife, is probably more geared. She again. We talked about that. We just interviewed her, and she did calligraphy for two years. So to sit and you have to have the patience of Job to do something like that, but the scholarship and you just want to believe what's true, yeah, so there's probably contradicting information out there. What's the best, most reliable sources who today, outside of yourself, who do you read?
I would say first, I always want to start with the primary text. All as much as we possibly can, start with your Bible, whatever your Bible translation is, unless it's a version. Did you work on it? Was called The Voice? The voice, yes, and it has its own, oh, there's a whole anecdote to go with that too. Why you may have never heard of it. It was called The Voice. It was published by Thomas Nelson, which was purchased by Harper Collins at that time, right when that happened.
So our young lady over there, Carolyn, is you're with Harper, right? Yeah, there she is. I have a book coming out. Yes, she has a written
yeah, I've just been copying your podcast. That's chapter two. One thing that the New Testament scholars chose to do with that is the word Christ is not a name. It is it doesn't really it is a transliteration, and what it actually means in English is anointed one. So there's a lot of people out in the world that think Christ is last name. I do that too. I do that too because it's a title. It means something.
But it's amazing how many people in general public think that Christ is Jesus's surname. So they made the choice in the New Testament to translate Christ as Anointed One, and in the old Goldberg, the Old Testament to translate Messiah also. So you have this continuity, which is fine. The Greeks in saying Christ were translating Messiah, there's you know, that that is completely acceptable. And I think good. And right? Well, when the Bible came out, just going to show people don't read anymore, the headline that came out that morning was something to the effect of new Bible takes Christ out of the New Testament. And then, if you actually read the article, it act. It did explain, okay, no, we translated it, but it was a salacious title. Well, the title got that's
all anybody reads anyway. It's the headlines, and it's intentionally misleading. I see all the memes going around of the headlines of what's going on in the news. Yeah, you we know if you've and I read those, yes, me too. And I look close the headline, I'm gonna read the whole article Absolutely.
And so the lead scholar that morning went on CNN on their morning show to talk about it, and CNN hadn't even read their own article, because they literally open up with so tell us how you can sell a Bible that leads Jesus out of it was, and then you see his face, and he was like, what? I mean, he recovered quickly and figured it out probably faster than I would. But like, you see how that, yeah, how that, that train of thought happens and it comes from people not actually reading anymore.
Well, that was kind of my original question. Was, the narrative outruns. It does the science Absolutely. And then how do you debunk the narrative that's wrong? Because 100 years later, the science debunks it, yeah, but now it's it's there, yeah, you
you have to try to change minds and get people to pay attention to and that it's getting increasingly difficult to do, for sure.
Never forgets right? And if that's your source, you just and someone comes to you with no information, and you go no way over here, yeah, I've, you know, and it's hard, I know, as a recovering addict, just to change belief systems. So especially in your world, if something, you'd like to think you're open minded enough, yes. So if somebody comes and says, you know, so I've always, you know, again, in my own personal recovery and growth, when my brain chirps because it's such a cesspool, you know, something, I have to ask it what? What is your source of information?
Which is why I say most of us, probably all of your listeners, have a Bible on their shelf at home, absolutely start with the really boring bits that Bible should have an introduction or a conclusion or something in there that explains to you where the train. Translation came from, when it was done, who did it, what they're affiliated with, all of that. And then, when you're reading it, pay attention to the footnotes, not necessarily, if it's a study Bible. I'm not talking about the study notes at the bottom that explained, but the footnotes so that you'll get a little asterisk next to Goliath height, and it'll tell you, you know, maybe, maybe this Bible puts, you know, six, six and a half span, six cubits span. And then you go down to the footnote, and it'll say, Greek manuscript reads four cubits and a span. Your your Bible right there. That is the primary source for Bible believers.
Actually a growing way to test and see, just go to Samuel 17. Yeah, it, honestly it is. And then look at it. And if there's a footnote. You can probably rest assured that the rest of the Bible is footnoted as well.
I think, yes, and there may be minor, you know, little things here and there, you know, that maybe get left out. But, I mean, it's like Jesus, yeah, exactly. Just drop him from the New Testament.
Years ago, I was watching tonight show. I was an atheist. I was I was probably drunk watching it. And Diane cannon, the actress, was on, and Johnny Carson says, I understand you do Bible study at your house. How's that work? And she said, Well, we don't talk about Jesus because it upsets people. And even Johnny went, how do you have a Bible? You neglect the, you know, the main character. And I just, I've never forgotten that. I just, even I as an atheist, sat there, go, that's really dumb. Yeah, that doesn't make any but you realize that there are a lot of churches thriving today that just don't want to talk about that controversial figure named Jesus. And I
I think it goes the other way, sometimes too intensely, focusing in on only that and then missing the broader context.
Well, that goes both ways. That's what I got out of our conversation today, was it's it. We do tend to want to do scripture memorization. We want to memorize which is good for and a lot of times we search for scripture that feeds something that maybe we're going through or, you know, because, again, the Bible should breathe in us and work its way out into the form, really, of service. I mean, I that's what I believe. If you incorporate the Bible, you should want to serve. That's just the way it goes. But it's also very narrow minded and to not study the context. And I think I'm gonna, I've always kind of skipped Chronicles. I've read the first chapter,
yeah, I heard been here done. Maybe I'll put
it at the end, yeah. And after reading the historical books, yeah, and then read it as a wisdom book, I again that that's interesting to me. So the in the Torah, yeah, it's at the end. Is it chronicles
the torah's first five books of the Bible, so they're at the beginning. And then Chronicles, if you, if you pick up a Jewish like, a Hebrew Bible, then that's going to be at the end. Okay?
And one thing that when they buy your book, because they will, what do you hope changes about how they read the Bible that they
I touched on this, I hope they come away understanding it's a theological text. Everything that I write about, every in that Bible, all you know, the work that happens in the field, all of that is about contextualizing the word that God gave to us. The Bible itself is about connecting with him, understanding him. For me, that is the tangible thing that he has given us for connection. And I hope they will want to dive into the Scripture better, not to satisfy your own curiosities about the history of the world or the way the sun was created, or anything like that, but that you fall in love with the Bible and the history that surrounds it because of who gave it to us. Thank you. And it's not a scientific book.
No, absolutely not. And that's
when you when you read it in the context of, I want science and proof. And of course, it won't make any sense
to you, no, because that's not why it was given. If without
without a connection to the the author, it's hard for it to make any sense to you, because I know that for years, I would pick it up in hotel rooms and just go, you know, and it wasn't until I finally just got on my knees and said, All right, I'm yours. Whatever that means, whatever that looks like that reading that book, it literally breathes into your soul in ways that you can't even put words around. It's again, it's like you have a thirst, and it gets quenched the wrong way multiple times, this thirst, because thirst always comes back. That's why the verse, When Jesus said, You drink from what I ought the same thing, yeah, that you'll never thirst again. And that, that is, if you get nothing from that today, please pick that book up. It is the, literally, the most in. Influential book in the history of the world for centuries.
And there's a reason for it, and it's divine. Nothing I'm going to say, Nothing Amanda is going to say today is going to do that for you. You just need to get on your knees and trust and just say, Okay, I don't get it. I don't understand it. But and then pick it up and and start your journey. And it is a lifelong journey, and I made so many mistakes i i started studying the Bible on Kindle or on on the iPad. No, but this isn't I want my grandchildren when I die, to have your notes to go through my book, yeah, and say this was the Papa.
Yeah, these are the steps he took. This is with the notes. I used to do that all the time. So get a book. Mark it up, go in there and write your thoughts, your questions, your anger, your you whatever God can handle it. Believe me. And Amanda, thank you so much.
Thank you so much. Yeah, wonderful conversation. Thank you.
And Nordic wave, Jeff. Jeff, 150 cold plunge. I'm telling you, it will change your life, not like the Bible. And believe me, there are mornings that happen that thing I literally see God. I got one foot in heaven.
It's not for everybody, but please do that and please subscribe. Hit the button, please and share. We need you to share this with people. I think we're like 100 subscribers from actually being able to make a few bucks on this thing, which would really help me out. This is a labor of love, but at some point, love has to be paid for. So we appreciate you. We really do appreciate you. Comment please, and where can they reach you if they want to comment to you? Because, believe me, if you're asking questions about what Amanda talked about, I'm not your go to I'm Bozo the Clown. So where can they reach you?
You can find me on social media. Amanda hope Haley, my website is the red haired archeologist. Yes, I have a little podcast. It's just me talking to myself. But yeah, you can, yeah, find stuff there